Securing Our Future
Securing Our Future
SOF 016: Modernizing Defense Acquisition with Tara Murphy Dougherty
Host Jeremy Hitchcock sits down with Tara Murphy Dougherty, CEO of Govini--a software company that modernizes the Defense Acquisition Process. Prior to her role as CEO, Tara served as Govini’s President of National Security, leading strategy and growth, and overseeing Govini’s work with all federal clients.
Tara has held leadership positions in technology across industry, government, and non-profit sectors, including at Palantir Technologies and serving as Chief of Staff for Global Strategic Affairs in the Office of the Secretary of Defense, among other senior roles. Tara holds a BS from the Georgia Institute of Technology and an MA in Security Studies from Georgetown University. She is a Term Member of the Council on Foreign Relations.
0:00
Introduction
Welcome
Data Transformation in the DoD
Decision-Making in the Day to Day
Advice for Start-ups
Alternate Life Journey
Hope for the Future
Not-for-Profit Work
Outro
This editable transcript was computer-generated and might contain errors.
Jeremy Hitchcock: [00:00:00] Today on the podcast, I'm joined here with Tara Murphy Doherty, who is CEO at Govini. Thanks for joining us, Tara. Thanks for having me, Jeremy. Well, I'd love to hear a bit about your background, but first, would love to know a bit about Gavini. Uh, what, what, what is it that you guys do and how did you end up joining the firm?
Tara Murphy Dougherty: Absolutely. So Gavini is a defense software company and we are focused on transforming primarily the defense acquisition process. I'd argue that today it's a liability to the United States, especially in terms of how we're competing with China. And I believe that software and data can transform that into actually a strategic advantage for the country, but it's going to require the department of defense in particular, as well as the national security sector overall to adopt these commercial technologies.[00:01:00]
Jeremy Hitchcock: You joined about five years ago with a bit of a bit of a question on what the future of the company was. And I'd love to, as a person who is now espousing modernization and and data, you yourself went through a bit of a bit of a journey in terms of a company pivot and a company change.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: It was a really interesting time to join Gavini.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: So five years ago, the company was going through the process of pivoting from the commercial sector that it had been working in as a B2B, uh, business intelligence software system, basically, into focusing on the national security sector and DoD as a client base entirely. And, uh, the. The overall thesis of the business really didn't change at all.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: We were founded 10 years ago when machine learning technologies were pretty emergent and there was a massive proliferation in the availability of data and especially data at [00:02:00] scale. And so the thesis that our founder had and built Gavini around was that you could combine those two things in order to create unparalleled visibility, especially into very opaque markets.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: Well, there probably isn't any market more opaque, at least in the United States, than the government one. And so that was the beginning of the business in terms of a go to market focus. And, uh, basically just not as large a total addressable market as initially envisioned. So he and the board decided to pivot the company at the end of 2017 and in 2018 really take off in bringing this capability that was premium commercial data at scale with machine learning technologies to Bring all of the data together and make it useful into the national security space.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: And the reason I jumped at the opportunity, even though it was just [00:03:00] the very beginning of that pivot was because of my own time in the Pentagon and what I experienced working in the office of the secretary of defense was just a total absence of data and decision making. And what was remarkable is the more.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: Decisions you were focused on, the higher the leadership attention got on an issue, the less data there actually was. All the data was owned by program offices dispersed around the, you know, the U. S. Department of Defense, various offices and installations. And then you had all the leadership in Pentagon trying to drive strategy and change, and they were reliant on data calls or ANIC data.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: So what I saw at Govini was A curated data set for defense and national security that would fill. These gaps to some extent. And so I thought there's absolutely a market opportunity for this. I know that we can [00:04:00] not just deliver value, but really have an impact on the mission. And so, like I said, I jumped at it sounds like
Jeremy Hitchcock: a neat opportunity and for my own.
Jeremy Hitchcock: Life and commercial, uh, trying to bridge both gaps. I mean, I can think of no one else who can use Pentagon and tech crunch and be in both, uh, both types of venues in this, you know, in the same week. So kudos to you for, for, for being able to live in both, both ecosystems. Thanks.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: It's been a lot
Jeremy Hitchcock: of fun. As you look at the data transformation, it's certainly been a huge transformation in private industry for many years now, in terms of how decisions are now made with data.
Jeremy Hitchcock: Where do you think that's going to go inside of Department of Defense? Is it a size and scale issue that's caused us to have to think of, okay, well, how does Department of Defense think of, Of of using data. Um, I also think about that in the context of a lot of [00:05:00] the leading whether it was Internet GPS space.
Jeremy Hitchcock: A lot of those things actually came from people who just said, I think this is possible. And so curious about how you think that larger role of data. In the size and scale in something like the Department of Defense plays out over the next 5, 10, 25 years, especially when industry has adopted it and how, how do you think it will show up in the Department of
Tara Murphy Dougherty: Defense?
Tara Murphy Dougherty: I think DOD so often is not just 5, but 10, 15, 20 years beyond behind. Private industry in a lot of these adoption of commercial technologies. And so, uh, data is no exception, exactly like you're pointing out. What's really interesting about what's to come is if you look at where we've been for the past decade, I'd argue, I think.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: That DoD has actually gotten much better at data management when it comes to its own internal, internal data sets and data [00:06:00] pipelines. Companies like Palantir, where I spent a number of years after I left the Pentagon, have been a big part of driving that, uh, use of commercial technologies around data management, which is.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: Has been pivotal to getting D. O. D. The access to its own data that it needs for decision making like we're just talking about. That's totally insufficient, though. And as you know, you would never run a company thinking, well, the data that I have and generate myself or own within my own systems. You know, everything I have in in Gavini's internal sales force instance is all I need to run the business.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: Of course not. I'm using data from so many different External sources to inform how I think about the market and how I think about the strategic environment overall and the way it in fact affects my clients and the competitive landscape and what the department needs to realize. And [00:07:00] what I think is going to be the, like I said, the next big wave over the coming 10 years is that as a fundamentally a global enterprise and arguably the fortune one company in the world, it too requires external data.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: And we have really seen this on the backside of COVID in the supply chain space, for example, where the department realized that it can't assume that the prime contractors it was working with are managing their suppliers. It can't assume as let's pivot to another example. Think about Ukraine. Do you can't assume that the industrial base has the production capacity that it used to have?
Tara Murphy Dougherty: And so now it's realizing. Wait a minute. We need to understand everything from. You know, financial risk associated with American suppliers to foreign investment in American technology companies [00:08:00] to commercial real estate purchases around military installations. And there's so many more examples, but that adoption of external data in order to understand the way it's operating in the world is, is I think the next area of focus when it comes to DoD using data.
Jeremy Hitchcock: When you seen different either program offices embrace using more data and their decision making process, is it you find that they still follow the same rules? Is it something where is a process question that that having more insights? I mean, obviously, more insights leads to typically better decision making, but I guess the is the question around data.
Jeremy Hitchcock: Is that really a giant overhaul? Or is that just that? Hey, this is just part of the equation that we're not bringing to. When we're making decisions about acquisitions priorities, like how, how, how optimistic or pessimistic are you [00:09:00] about acquisitions? Generally speaking
Tara Murphy Dougherty: in the absence of change, pretty pessimistic, but you said something really important in there that I'd love to pull the thread on, which is.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: Is a major overhaul required and what I would argue is that despite the fact that you hear a lot of talk about the need for acquisition reform or, you know, additional authorities from Congress, or we need to spin up a commission that writes a 600 page report. I don't think any of that is true. I don't think that the acquisition process in D.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: O. D. Needs a major overhaul. I think. The process part is exactly what has been ignored and today, it's really the process is really manual. It's really complex. It's very burdensome. It's just, it's completely devoid of the way that we think. think about executing processes in the private [00:10:00] sector, for example, where we use a lot of commercial software and external data in order to make our processes more efficient.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: If we focus on modernizing the process side of acquisition and we drive efficiency and most importantly, we get those program offices to start being proactive. About managing acquisition programs, then I think you can execute the impact. You can have a massive impact without having to execute a massive overhaul.
Jeremy Hitchcock: How do you guys in your day to day job use decision making? So how do you use your own, your own things that you preach in your, uh, in your own day to
Tara Murphy Dougherty: day? Yeah, absolutely. Well, first and foremost, I often say that Kavini is the only company in the world that can actually do a total addressable market analysis for emerging [00:11:00] technologies in the national security space.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: Um, and so, you know, we look at Not just what is D. O. D. Say the budget is for the coming year or if they publish numbers for the five year plan for the next five years. We spent a lot of time looking at where is the money actually go. And that's interesting to us from a business perspective. It's interesting to us from a market perspective.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: Perspective, but it's also really interesting to our defense clients because they don't have the data or the capabilities often to see, especially holistically. What is D. O. D. Doing in. The area of artificial intelligence, for example, we know that the F. Y. 24 budget request says we're going to have some, you know, 100 or so 600 I think A.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: I. Programs and a 1. 8 billion budget, but I can tell you over the past couple of years, [00:12:00] D. O. D. Has spent more than 8 billion a year on various A. I. Activities and initiatives. Which, frankly, I think is a lot closer to what Wright looks like in terms of how much we need to be investing in this space. So, it's just, it's really important to get that view of, well, what's actually happening.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: That's a money example, but the same thing holds when you're trying to field modernized military capabilities like we're talking about in the acquisition process as well.
Jeremy Hitchcock: If there were two or three areas where you would increase funding and decrease funding, what, what are, what are, what are some ways you think about fielding that question?
Jeremy Hitchcock: For
Tara Murphy Dougherty: DOD?
Jeremy Hitchcock: For DOD. If you were an appropriator for a day, what would you, how would you think about
Tara Murphy Dougherty: that? Yes, if I were an appropriator for a day, the very first thing I would do is actually, Force commercial item preference [00:13:00] and say, I'm going to spend more money on existing commercial capabilities, whether that is a novel application of artificial intelligence or software, or it's a hardware system or a drone.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: I'd spend less money on systems development and rebuilding the same things that the commercial sector has already created. So there's this existing law on the books that says the Department of Defense is required to, in every case, Possible start at a point of acquiring commercial software and configure it for its unique military needs.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: It just isn't enforced and the best way to drive that outcome. Which is certainly the right one for national security and I'd argue for the warfighter is to put the money into those commercial capabilities and take it out of those development [00:14:00] projects.
Jeremy Hitchcock: Do you score different program areas or or other acquisitions?
Jeremy Hitchcock: Do we score them? Yeah, with how, how, how, how much deviation there is from a commercially, uh, because if you have a free product tip from the PC.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: Yeah, I love that. I'll put it in our feature on our product road map in the feature list. Perfect. Yeah. So we do. We develop indicators. I can't actually say that we've looked at that specific measure of deviation from an existing commercial capability, although it is a really interesting idea.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: But we do develop our own indicators using Gavini's data around various aspects of basically three things. We look at companies, capabilities and capital. That's flowing into those things all through the national security ecosystem. So in the company category, we're developing indicators that are looking at things [00:15:00] that typically have to do with risk.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: So, you know, what is the technology readiness level of a commercial? Tech capability. What is financial risk score of an existing, maybe small supplier that makes a single source component of a major weapons program in the capabilities category? We're looking more at the technologies itself, whether that's emerging technology, and we're looking at core sciences and patents or its legacy parts of, you know, you.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: 50 or 60 year old military programs. And then, of course, on the capital side, we're looking at everything from, you know, what's the, um, what are the indicators around our big publicly traded companies? Um, to are there Chinese investments in some of these emerging, um, companies or technology startups that DoD wants to attract to its [00:16:00] ecosystem?
Jeremy Hitchcock: So if you had to give any advice to either primes or startups, maybe it's the same advice you give in terms of how, how they should think about going to market with, uh, with, with the department of defense or the national security enterprise. What, what advice do you give?
Tara Murphy Dougherty: Well, it definitely is not the same advice, and I would argue that it's, it, the advice would change pretty dramatically, not only based on whether you're a startup or you're, you know, a publicly traded prime, but.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: If you're a startup, what stage of life you're in. Um, one of the things that's. controversial that I often tell, uh, friends who are going off and founding companies in this space or who are leading go to market efforts for companies working with defense is ignore the primes. Ignore the primes unless they're your target market.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: Because if you want to demonstrate [00:17:00] fast results in a market DoD. Where nothing procurement wise happens fast, the most effective path is to go directly to that mission owner. Do not collect an SBIR. Do not find a partner along the way. Do not, you know, think that you should show up to that incubators pitch day.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: Just go talk to the mission owner because DoD is actually full of people who are executing whatever their particular mission or their office's mission is, who feel some pain that you can likely alleviate and these people, many of them are creative. And motivated and have a little bit of discretionary funding sloshing around in their O and M accounts.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: And that is a great way not to build the sixth prime. Uh, some of our friends are out there talking about, but it is certainly a great way to demonstrate that your [00:18:00] product has traction in the market. And you know, this ecosystem well enough to prove those results so that then you can go out, raise the capital needed, pitch yourself as the sixth prime.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: If you
Jeremy Hitchcock: were going to do a startup in something that's either defense only or, or dual use, what would you start? That's not convenient. No, no. Like, Oh, I know you beat, you almost beat me to it. Second idea.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: Like an idea that, uh, defense or dual use. I mean, I'll be honest with you. I have a list of about 12. I look around and there are so many things to fix in this space.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: Um, I hesitate to give you specifics because, you know, paranoia is a business trait, as Andy Grove says. So, um, It's true. Ideas are free, though. It's all about execution, right? That I very much agree with. Yeah, there's a reason there are 12 things on the [00:19:00] list. It's because ideas are the easy part. It's executing on them.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: That's hard. I think in, you know, let's take generative AI. For example, super easy, uh, to point to in terms of how, and this touches on what we were talking about earlier, there are a lot of applications of generative AI. I don't know how many of the ideas that I have had are actually company ideas. They might be product ideas.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: Some of them are probably just feature ideas that may or Nplateこと 0504050505050505050505050505050505050505052050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505005050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505040505050505050505050505050605050505050505050405050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050505050 You know that other products could adopt, but there are certainly some aspects of generative generative A.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: I. That will launch new companies in the defense space. And, um, and yet it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, which is if you talk to people in D. O. D. Today, they're afraid of generative A. I. You know, CDAO just stood up a generative AI task force with task force Lima just to try and put [00:20:00] guardrails or create a system to put guardrails on the application of generative AI in D.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: O. D. I think from a really good perspective to promote it to make people comfortable enough to adopt it. Um, but the, the hesitation and concern is certainly there. So the private sector is going to run with generative AI. It's going to be truly revolutionary in lots of different ways. Um, and eventually DoD will adopt it as well for the better, I would say.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: Well, there you
Jeremy Hitchcock: go. One, one business idea. That's, that's, uh, somebody can, somebody can go off and run with, we'll see, we'll see if anyone starts it. So if you were not at Gavini, uh, cause it was kind of a chance chance opportunity that you, you ended up, uh, you know, from starting off as a, as a researcher at CSIS.
Jeremy Hitchcock: And then over here, like how, how, I mean, you must've thought about this a couple of different ways. How, how could your life journey have [00:21:00] evolved in a different way or in 10 years from now, where do you think you'll be?
Tara Murphy Dougherty: Yeah, uh, well, based on the evolution, like you said, it started in the nonprofit sector.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: I mean, I was working on nuclear weapons policy because that was sort of the intersection of technology and defense for deterrence issues. Um, back then, before anybody was talking about AI and quantum and those kinds of things in defense. Um, From there to the Pentagon, which I loved my experience there, but also knew it wasn't a long term career plan for me in the bureaucracy, to Palantir, to Govini, so I have no idea what I'll be doing in 10 years, because 10 years ago, I probably would Wouldn't say this is where I'd be today.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: Um, but I have thought about, okay, what's that thing that I would go do if I were to just throw my hands in the air at D O D and say, you know, you're helpless. I tried going to go do something [00:22:00] wildly different. And I would take that a I that we were just talking about and I applied in the fashion industry.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: I think that, um, especially when it comes to some of the creative opportunity around AI and imagery, the fashion industry is woefully behind, which is maybe something they share with DoD. Um, and I think it'd be a ton of fun and even better since this podcast is audio only. Claim that interest without anybody judging what I'm wearing
Jeremy Hitchcock: I I can only remark that it is fantastic and you guys are missing out but it it is fun to see and I think that's one of the one of the areas where Government dod in particular can can really lean forward on evolutionary revolutionary types of technologies that the private sector doesn't think about and then they'll show up and In private industry and and that simmers over for a while and then it goes back and forth back and forth.
Jeremy Hitchcock: [00:23:00] And right now, I think we're living in a time where it's more private sector leading on innovation. But, um, you know, fashion for a lot of its reasons and apparel got a lot of robotics and a lot of generative AI things and imaging. I mean, you can, um, you definitely can do can do some pretty good stuff
Tara Murphy Dougherty: there.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: Absolutely. I think you make a really important point about dual use. Actually, a lot. Thank you. You know, we talk about, uh, taking technologies that are nascently developed in, in defense or in DOD, and then moving over to the commercial sector and being wildly successful, you know, think a night vision, right.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: As we talk about that as in the past almost, or like the historical reference. And now we talk about dual use as technologies that are being started by companies that are working in commercial. And what can we bring into. To D. O. D. As in in that ecosystem, and we should not forget that there are [00:24:00] a lot of innovative things that are happening in D.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: O. D. And with the companies that they're working with today, and the potential for dual use to go both directions is still really exciting. And, yes, I do believe that A. I. And, um, and computer vision and imaging and things you talk about are certainly one category of that overall trend. Yeah,
Jeremy Hitchcock: definitely.
Jeremy Hitchcock: Celebrate the it goes both ways. I think I think that there's there's a pattern that needs to needs to be continued to push on because they're there is there's great, great people and and Do D lands, great people in industry and a lot of things that the innovations that we all get to enjoy. They come from collaboration, trying to solve problems and whether it's trying to figure out the cool fashion thing that you're you're repping today, or if it's we've seen companies that have pitched advanced materials and and body armor or for hazardous environments that are that are done in generative fashion.
Jeremy Hitchcock: It's good. [00:25:00] There's there's realness to that. And the question is, how do those things come to fruition? And those things push us all along. If you figure out how to make a better printer for something, then you figure out a better use case for it. And it's better imaging. And that all goes, I guess, the data question that you really focus at is like, where is the puck going?
Jeremy Hitchcock: And as you're, as you're looking at that, it must be a very fascinating place to see where those trends are to us today. Extrapolate, Hey, where are we going to be in five years, 10 years, or where are we missing on the curve of, we should go over this way or go over this way instead. It must be a fun place to
Tara Murphy Dougherty: be.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: It's a really fun place to be. And that's exactly what we're doing. You know, I said early on in the conversation, if we can get those program managers, those program offices to be proactive, to skate to where the puck is going to be in getting military capabilities off the production line and into the field.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: field for deterrence reasons, as well as war fighting reasons. Um, then that's what we need in order to, you know, drive what we want to do in the United [00:26:00] States forward. And, uh, and I think there, I think just the, all the myriad examples you just rattled off. Are so exciting and indicative of the fact that more companies want to work on American competitiveness and national security challenges than I've seen in my lifetime, surely, uh, and that's exciting for all of us.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: You think
Jeremy Hitchcock: there's a point where we know we've, we've lost that competitive edge globally, or is it still further out in the, in the future? Are you, are you, uh, You think that will, the United States allies will, will, will, will make it past that point of inflection?
Tara Murphy Dougherty: Well, yeah, that's a frightening question.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: And of course, different people have different viewpoints. If you read Ray Dalio's book that came out, you know, two years ago, he, he would say we passed the point and are trending in the wrong direction. I'm [00:27:00] not. As it's hard to argue with data, right? Which is book is
Jeremy Hitchcock: what data do you have to suggest that he's not?
Jeremy Hitchcock: He's not right. Exactly.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: Yes. And the data that I would offer is likewise, um, pretty eye opening in terms of, um, how much we need to do with respect to especially turning all of the money that the United States is spending. spending in this space into actual military capability to affect the change we want.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: We know that there are a lot of inputs. What Kavini is trying to do with our data and in combination with DoD's own data is put more of a focus on the outcomes and outputs. Because I think if we can. Connect those dots for people. And the discussion isn't just about, well, we're spending this much money on artificial intelligence, but rather as we fielded 25 AI [00:28:00] based programs to the war fighter last year alone, that is an outcome that tells me the United States is going to continue to be impossible to not just compete with, but be.
Jeremy Hitchcock: Outside of Gavini, you, you have a couple of, of, uh, not for profit affiliations, and I was wondering if you could, you could tell us a bit of how you got involved and, and why they're, why they're meaningful to you and, and what, what change they hope to make. Yeah,
Tara Murphy Dougherty: absolutely. One that is really important to me.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: Uh, I joined. relatively recently, about a year ago, year and a half ago, maybe, which is the National Security Innovation Program at the Reagan Institute. And this is an effort that's led by Rachel Hoffman, um, is just so important in terms of I think really elevating the conversation around what is happening with respect to the dearth of innovation that we see in DoD and how to solve some of the [00:29:00] problems that you and I have been talking about, not from a process perspective, but from a policy perspective.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: And I don't ever want to lose my, uh, connectivity to the policy debates. And so that's a wonderful way of staying plugged into that and trying to help. I ideate and affect solutions in that space. The other one that I'm really passionate about is the National Defense University Foundation. And what our mission is is to really drive support for the students and the faculty and staff of the National Defense University.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: NDU is unique in many ways. But one that's important to me is, uh, it houses the Eisenhower College, which is specifically focused on helping to develop essentially the business minds of our military leaders. And the more we can do to promote that, I think the better off all companies, no [00:30:00] matter whether you are a Traditional or nontraditional are going to fare and working with D.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: O. D. One of the single biggest things I think we can do to drive those innovation goals is to help educate people in government about basic fundamentals of business. Business models, business outcomes, business metrics, because you and I have talked about this previously, when you understand where the person you're talking to is coming from, you tend to communicate better, uh, and that's a big gulf between DoD and the private sector today, not as big with the traditionals, very big with the non traditionals, although I think getting smaller,
Jeremy Hitchcock: it seems like it's getting smaller and that's That optimism, I think, is what we have to have.
Jeremy Hitchcock: So thank you for joining us, Tara.
Tara Murphy Dougherty: Thank you again for having me.